Legislature(1999 - 2000)
04/20/1999 03:05 PM House HES
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
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+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HB 113 - POSTSECONDARY EDUC FOR HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS Number 2087 CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON announced the next order of business as House Bill No. 113, "An Act relating to a program of postsecondary education for high school students." Number 2090 EDDIE GRASSER, Legislative Assistant for Representative Beverly Masek, came forward and presented another proposed committee substitute, version I. Number 2108 CO-CHAIRMAN COGHILL made a motion to adopt the proposed committee substitute (CS) for HB 113, version 1-LSO461\I, Ford, 4/20/99, as a work draft. There being no objection, Version I was before the committee. The committee took an at-ease from 3:46 p.m. to 3:47 p.m. Number 2128 MR. GRASSER reviewed the changes in the proposed CS. Page 2, Section 14.30.760 was changed so all high school students would be eligible to participate in this program, rather than just students in the eleventh or twelfth grade. On page 1, line 10, the CS changes the "shall" to "may" which the committee had adopted previously. On page 2, Section 14.30.770, it was changed to allow dual credit in both the high school and college. Several other changes were made throughout the bill to reflect that language. His office has discussed with Representative Brice's office about adding a grade point average (GPA) requirement. The companion bill in the Senate has a 2.25 GPA required to participate in this program. Representative Masek didn't incorporate a GPA because there are areas in the state where there are postsecondary opportunities that aren't necessarily academic in nature and provide vocational training. Her thought was that some of the high school students who may have their basic requirements out of the way, could opt to go to one of the vocational schools. They may not need a real high GPA because it is not an academic endeavor. Number 2249 REPRESENTATIVE BRICE indicated that his school district suggested that there should be some type of assurance that the student is capable of taking college-level courses. There are several ways to address that issue; his approach was a 3.0 GPA which was recommended by his school district. He agrees they don't want to prohibit the vocational education programs. His alternative instead of a 3.0 GPA, would be a 3.0 GPA with the ability of the building administrator to waive that requirement, or a dual track: Have one GPA for academic classes and another for vocational classes. MR. GRASSER had discussed those thoughts with Representative Masek, and she would entertain a dual track GPA. TAPE 99-39, SIDE B Number 2332 CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked if they had an amendment for the GPA. REPRESENTATIVE BRICE answered that he had an amendment for the 3.0 GPA, but the dual GPA idea just came up right before the meeting. He will work on it. CO-CHAIRMAN COGHILL asked for clarification on whether Section 2, AS 14.03.080(b) is affected by Section 14.30.760(b). Number 2244 CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON replied he didn't believe they were linked. CO-CHAIRMAN COGHILL asked if the school districts make counseling services regarding the risks and possible consequences would be for the academic courses. MR. GRASSER replied yes. He understands that portion provides counseling services, but it also lets the student know that taking a class at the university is not quite the same as taking a class in high school. The idea there is to make sure that the students understand the differences, risks and problems involved of leaving the high school structure and entering the university system. CO-CHAIRMAN COGHILL asked if they would compute a ninth grader's GPA from elementary school. Number 2085 MR. GRASSER replied that their GPA would be based on their middle school GPA. In the bill, the district and the university could decide whether a student would be capable of attending at the university level through the counseling process. CO-CHAIRMAN COGHILL believes that individual recommendation by a teacher and/or the principal would go a lot further than a GPA in recognizing ability. Number 2029 BRUCE JOHNSON, Director, Teaching and Learning Support, Department of Education (DOE), came forward to testify. He read from a prepared statement: The State Board of Education supports this bill and supports the expansion of educational opportunities for students. In our estimation, this is a positive concept that can benefit many students and clearly there is lots of evidence to suggest that some high school students clearly are capable of enjoying a positive university experience while still in high school. While the initial reading of the bill is obvious where we have large university campuses in Alaska. We also believe that this will spur some real creative opportunities for rural students who may have a more limited curriculum available to them when they rely only on local district programming. Whatever the outcome of this bill or similar bills, we would encourage the honoring of existing programs that have occurred in the state. There are many real creative and significant partnerships between local communities and their local university that have evolved over many years. Some are highly unique to their particular situation, but they are working and therefore we would hope that you would give some consideration to their continuance. Finally, the appropriation that is outlined in the bill will undoubtedly encourage the expansion of educational opportunities for students. Because there is an indication an appropriation would be forthcoming, we suspect that local school districts will support this concept to the extent that tuition is available through the reimbursement out of the foundation program. We hope that is a correct reading of the bill, and that there would be an appropriation that would be available to the department or local school districts. CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked if there is a fiscal note with this bill. Number 1926 EDDY JEANS, Manager, School Finance Section, Education Support Services, Department of Education, came forward to testify. In their analysis of HB 113, they do believe that this will require a separate appropriation to fund this program. Those monies would then be allocated out to the school districts under this program. They have prepared an asterisked fiscal note which is not a zero fiscal note; it means there are some costs associated with this program, but at this point in time, the department doesn't have the information to project what that cost would be. CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON assumed that it will be difficult to estimate, but he suspects there might be a commensurate reduction in adult basic education (ABE) needs or a reduction in the university's needs for putting these courses on. He asked when the DOE thought they could get a handle on the costs. Number 1858 MR. JEANS answered he is not sure how they would go about it. Under HB 113, clearly it would require a legislative appropriation under 14.30.790 which refers to funding for school districts and says "Subject to appropriation and in addition to funding received under AS 14.17," which is the foundation program that the monies would be made available to school districts under 14.30.790 so they would be establishing a new program that would require its own independent appropriation. He is sure they could come up with a starting point to implement the program, but he couldn't tell them how accurate it would be. They don't know how many high school students would be interested in participating in this program. The Committee took an at-ease from 4:08 p.m. to 4:12 p.m. Number 1797 CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON announced they would rework HB 113 and vote on it on Thursday. Number 1778 HARRY ROGERS, Superintendent, Valdez City Schools, came forward to testify and to agree with the intent of HB 113. After listening to the testimony from last week, he heard some things and was concerned that something in HB 113 may affect what they are already doing. In Valdez, they are effectively blurring the line between high school and college. They have a partnership with Prince William Sound Community College, and it has worked very well, but it is still a fragile relationship. They are concerned that there are some things in the bill that could affect that. They have about 229 students in their grades 9 through 12 high school. Out of those 229, 104 of them are taking some college credit classes, even some freshman. Those 104 students will earn 935 hours of college credit this year. He will have the opportunity to hand diplomas to high school students who will be sophomores in college when they pick up that diploma. It has been an excellent program. MR. ROGERS expressed concern about the GPA requirement. He referred the committee to an envelope that was handed out which contains five descriptions of their two-year certificate programs. The students who take these courses are more of the vocational kind of student. The students can get half of the programs required for this two-year certificate while they are in high school. This may be the strongest part of their program because there are students in those programs who are not college bound. When they graduate from high school, they have half a college certificate and have gained confidence to return to the college and complete the program. They would be concerned if the committee started limiting who can take the courses. Number 1648 CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked Mr. Rogers how they tell a student that it is not appropriate for him to take a college course. Number 1641 MR. ROGERS answered that every student works with an advisor, most likely a guidance counselor in the school, and it is through that advice that they participate in the courses. He told the committee that if they asked the high school principal what the best part of this program is, he would say it is getting some students that probably aren't good students, and maybe aren't ready for school, and getting them involved in some of these programs, and they are college students when they get through. CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON commented that they probably have the other side of that: Bright students who are bored in high school, and they get challenged by the advanced work. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN believes this is right on the edge of where they need to go with the education system. Number 1516 MR. ROGERS pointed out the list of academic classes available, and there are about 80 hours of credit available to their students. The most important ingredient in this program is that all of these college courses are offered on their campus, in their schedule. Those two things need to happen for a program to grow. That is where the delicate relationship comes in because there are lots of turfs involved, when college teachers start coming onto a high school campus and teaching or high school teachers becoming adjunct faculty teaching college courses in the high school. They have done a good job of meshing that partnership. Number 1460 CO-CHAIRMAN COGHILL asked if there is a temptation to speed over some of the high school courses to get to the good courses in college or is that an issue. MR. ROGERS didn't believe that was an issue. As this program has evolved, they have found some seniors who have gotten into college level courses so heavily and realized they have gone too far. He believes that is a learning experience too. They have emphasized with their instructors that these classes have to be college level. Number 1354 REPRESENTATIVE BRICE asked Mr. Rogers if there is a set model in the state that is implemented to allow college courses. MR. ROGERS answered that there are some places doing similar things to what they are doing, but the relationship is going to have to be unique with the partner, and that may not be the same. He believes most schools approach it in their own way. CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked Mr. Rogers if it will be a problem for him if the older students return to the high school to finish their high school education. Number 1257 MR. ROGERS answered that he is concerned about it, but the change of "shall" to "may" has helped. He is not sure how they will address the issue of older students having access to the school. CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked if Valdez has an active adult basic education (ABE) program. Number 1221 MR. ROGERS confirmed that the ABE program at Prince William Sound Community College will have as many graduates this year as Valdez High School. The ABE program includes Glennallen and Cordova. Number 1200 CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON sees Section 2 of HB 113 allowing a school to blur the lines between adult basic education and the high school, if they chose. MR. ROGERS prefers that the funding go to the ABE program, but doesn't think Section 2 of HB 113 is unmanageable. Number 1156 CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked those who have concerns with HB 113 to work things out to revise this bill, and they will take this bill up again on Thursday. REPRESENTATIVE BRICE believes it will come down to whether there should be some standard for a student to participate in the program. He noted that Valdez uses a counseling screening process. CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON also asked Mr. Jeans to work on the funding end of this. It was not the intention of the sponsors of the bill to have a separate line item appropriation. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN believes that allowing the governing bodies to make their own standards is a good idea. He asked Mr. Rogers if the difference between a community college teacher and a high school teacher is because they can't find, in some cases, qualified high school teachers to teach that subject, or does the postsecondary school require their own professors for certain classes. Number 0965 MR. ROGERS answered it is probably some of both. They try to get the high school instructor approved as adjunct faculty because then the students can take the course for only a $15 registration fee. If the college instructor comes onto the high school campus, then the students pay the $180 tuition for three credits. However, they have a scholarship program in place so that no student is denied. How they fund the appropriation is the key. If all of a sudden the school district has to start paying, it is over. They have 1,000 hours of college credit, and it would be giving them a bill for $50,000 to $100,000. The wording of that is critical, and he believes that they have worked it out in Valdez. CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON mentioned that he believed Representative Brice raised the point the other day about the physical capacity in Section 2 conforming with the Americans for Disabilities Act, but he didn't see it in this version. He asked him to work on that also. Number 0805 MR. CYR supports this bill but after hearing the discussion he has become worried that the funding will come from education budgets that are already sliced too thin. This bill needs to be funded from the state level. Number 0612 ROBERT SEWELL, Student Resources Coordinator, University of Alaska Southeast, came forward to testify and is delighted that they are considering HB 113. He pointed out page 2, line 3 where it mentions receiving an eleventh or twelfth grade education. It is not their experience that that level of experience is necessary. He doesn't believe this legislation means to exclude an able learner who is younger than eleventh grade. He recommends that the phrase "eleventh and twelfth grade" be struck and substitute "secondary education." DR. SEWELL suggested striking the section "equivalent of one school year" on page 2, line 15 and let it be an advising issue. Number 0280 CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked Mr. Grasser what they intended on lines 14-15. MR. GRASSER answered it deals with the different credit systems between schools. For example, in high school a student gets one credit per semester and in college a student gets three credits. Number 0207 DR. SEWELL suggested lines 14-15 be rephrased to make that clear. TAPE 99-40, SIDE A [Due to a tape malfunction, the following testimony was reconstructed from log notes and written testimony.] DR. SEWELL suggested that Sec. 14.30.780 (b) be struck on page 3 because for one thing, they don't have quarter credits. He suggested they substitute similar wording to the proposed memorandum of agreement between the Juneau School District (JSD) and the University of Alaska Southeast: "Payment of Costs A. Tuition - the cost of tuition and the associated expenses of fees and books will be paid by JSD upon billing by UAS following Semester Week - 3." DR. SEWELL is not sure of the intent of page 4, line 14 and suggested that that be revisited. He doesn't believe they would want to charge the students for disability support services, for example. DARROLL HARGRAVES, Executive Director, Alaska Council of School Administrators, came forward to testify. He supports the concept of HB 113 and agrees with Mr. Roger's testimony. He would like to see the bill reduced to one and a half pages. He provided the following points: Sec. 2 This is acceptable. The important thing is to allow local districts to make the decision about how over-age students attend. When these students attend they should be counted in the enrollment count with regular students and qualified to generate foundation funding for the school district. Sec. 14.30.760. Let local schools and the postsecondary institution determine the requirements for allowing secondary students to enroll in courses that can be allowed for both secondary and postsecondary credit. No grade point or grade level needs to be in statute. Delete paragraph (b). Local situations can determine the level of counseling and advising to be included in the program. Paragraph (c) is acceptable but delete point number (2). Paragraph (d) is acceptable. Sec. 14.30.770. Calculation of academic credit. This entire section should be deleted to allow local schools and the University to apply their policies. A three-credit semester course at the University based on the Carnegie Unit generally would be accepted by a local school district to be worth one half of a math credit to apply toward graduation. Sec. 14.30.780. Funding for postsecondary institutions. Delete this section and add something like: The school district shall pay the tuition established by the University for any classes in which secondary students enroll for dual credit subject to reimbursement by the Department of Education. Nothing in this law prohibits a school district and the University of Alaska from entering into local agreements to provide courses and programs with terms and conditions to which they mutually agree. Sec. 14.30.790. Funding for school districts. Delete this section and add something like: Subject to appropriations and in addition to funding received under AS 14.17, the department shall make payments to reimburse districts for university tuition payments made by the school district for students in dual enrollment courses. Sec. 14.30.800. Prohibited financial aid and fees. This section is acceptable. Sec. 14.30.380. Definitions. In definition number 2 change "nationally accredited" to "regionally accredited". CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked Wendy Redman from the university about changing "nationally accredited" to "regionally accredited." WENDY REDMAN agreed in this instance that it should be changed. CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON announced they will keep working on this bill to address all the concerns and suspended the hearing on HB 113. [HB 113 was held over.]
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